Moderator: Welcome to today’s episode of True to Form, with your host, President and Co-Founder of Crystal Clear, highly regarded speaker and two time Inc. 500 entrepreneur, Tim Sawyer. True to Form is a podcast that highlights leaders making headway in the aesthetic, anti-aging and elective medical industry. Learn from the experts to discover the secrets of success and pitfalls to avoid when growing all aspects of your elective medical practice. This week’s episode is brought to you by TouchMD, the only aesthetic technology hub that educates your captive audience in the waiting room and consult room, consistently captures and manages photos, provides digital charting and consents, and allows patients to take their experience home to share what they learned with friends and family via the PracticesPatient [Phonetic] [0:00:57] app. Please join me in welcoming your host, the authentic, the transparent Tim Sawyer.
Tim: Hello and welcome to the first episode of marketing and practice management month here on True to Form, the podcast that connects you to the people, technology and hot topics that shaped the elective medical community. Provided to you by Crystal Clear Digital Marketing and brought to you by this week sponsored TouchMD, the leading all in one aesthetic technology hub. I’m your host, Tim Sawyer, and to our returning guests, we say welcome back. And for our first time listeners, we appreciate you joining us and as always encourage you to become a subscriber. Last week we spoke with Founder of Empire Medical Training, Dr. Stephen Cosentino, in which he talked about why you should never do business alone. If you missed it, we courage you to check it out.
And with all that said, and with all the build-up and excitement associated with the special theme that we’re doing this month, we have an unbelievable guest today. I am – it’s my pleasure to introduce to you Joni O’Leary. Joni O’Leary currently is the Vice President of Marketing for Ziering Medical, one of the largest and a leader in hair restoration. And she has spent the last 16 years building the Ziering Medical brand since its launch in 2003. So without further ado, welcome to the podcast Joni and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Joni: Hey, Tim, great to be here. I’ll have to confess up front, it’s my first podcast. So this is going to be quite the experience for me.
Tim: That’s why we call it authentic and genuine.
Joni: Well, I have been with Ziering Medical for a little over 16 years, I actually got involved with Dr. Ziering when he was practicing in a larger group practice and had a vision for launching his private practice. And we work together with our CFO to craft a business plan and then it was off to the races. And over the course of those years, I have done many different things, things I thought I could do, have been stretched in ways doing things I never thought I would do. So it’s been a real interesting journey.
Tim: And what – so what, tell us about that journey? So what were some of the hats because as you said, you were part of the original vision – and if I understand Ziering Medical, is a pretty big practice right now, multiple locations and one of the larger practices in the United States, probably the largest in terms of hair restoration. So what – so you started, you’re part of that vision, you did a little bit of practice management and then you migrated eventually towards marketing. So was marketing your passion in the beginning or was it a role that you just had to kind of learn and grow into?
Joni: Marketing was more my background, I had come from an entertainment marketing background, so medical was new to me. I have a lot to learn and as Dr. Ziering launched his practice in Southern California, you know, we had to get started with – back in the day, you know, newspaper was kind of king and, you know, getting that sort of first flight of newspaper ads written, designed, crafting that message that communicated, you know, what was unique about Dr. Ziering, and eventually Ziering Medical as it became sort of this larger footprint. And you know, there are definitely some key highlights, I know one of my favorite memories is back in the day when ABC was producing a very popular show at the time called Extreme Makeover.
Joni: [Crosstalk] [00:04:47] interviewed by the producer and was tapped to be the very first hair transplant surgeon to perform a procedure on that show. And at the time, quite honestly, you know, it was so exciting and fun but we had no idea what the impact of that show was going to be. I mean, for – really one of the first times you got to see a full on surgery performed, it really did a lot to educate the general public about all the advancements in hair transplant surgery, and our phone didn’t stop ringing off the hook, I mean, it just – it was just, we were not ready–
Tim: How great is that?
Joni: For the tsunami.
Tim: How great is that? And so in that, it’s funny Joni, when you think about it, if you look back at – that every, you know, successful story, not just in elective medicine, but there’s always that kind of one break that the person made. So a little bit of luck, but they also made that break and then it sounds like you helped take the practice – help the practice take advantage of that. And now, you know, you are where you are now. So – for on the marketing side, where is the game now? Is it a 100 – for you guys, is it a 100% digital, are you still doing some billboards? What’s your mix if you don’t mind sharing that?
Joni: Well, we are mostly digital, I’m sure all of us here would recognize that there’s so much efficiency in that, you just can clearly see I spend X, I get Y. And you can communicate that especially up the line to your Chief Financial Officer, who’s over, you know, giving a bunch of oversight to, you know, budgets and return. So it is the cleanest form, but I will say that it’s important to keep that mix interesting. We’re obviously engaged on the social, we do a lot of pay per click, we spend, you know, on search and display. Occasionally, we do some type of event sponsorship but I will say we have tried events sponsorship over the years. And we have – when we go into something like that we’re really careful about the KPIs or the expectations we have on return for that, that’s more of a branding opportunity for us.
And we recognize that most people with hair loss, which is what our specialty is, are not entirely comfortable coming up to our booth or our, you know, area to sort of raise their hand and say, “Oh, I have hair loss and I want to do something about it.” For a lot of people, there’s a lot of embarrassment around their hair loss. So we recognize that we may have exposure there in front of an audience that matters to us that’s interested in what we do, but we may not see an immediate return on something like that. But I will say across the years, I have never seen – well, marketing is just becoming more and more complex, and there’s more and more platforms. And this – it’s you really have to continue to evolve in order to find your customers.
Tim: So let me ask you, two things I want to address one, you brought up a great acronym that the vast majority of folks in elective medicine would know what that means, which is KPIs. And for those of you who are listening KPIs are key performance indicators. So they’re kind of like data points that you look at, as you track your marketing dollars and the success of the pull through rate. Joni, how would you – you know, you’re in a larger practice, like you said, it’s fairly complex, there’s layers to it. It’s highly efficient, because you spent a lot of time paying attention to it. What kind of advice would you have for that, you know, five hundred to a million dollars in revenue practice who thinks, “Ah, we don’t even have to pay attention to this stuff,”?
Joni: Wow, I would say beware of those words, I would really caution anyone about that kind of mindset because at the end of the day, if you’re spending money to build your practice and build your brand, you want to make sure the money that you spend, regardless of the size of that budget, whether it’s small, medium or large, that it’s working for you, that you’re putting it in places that matter. And if you don’t start the process with kind of stepping back and saying to yourself, you know, here are the business conversations I need to have daily, monthly, quarterly, annually to understand whether my business is growing or dying. You will get yourself in a lot of trouble, I would always recommend that you decide at the very beginning what your KPIs are.
And for me, I always think of KPIs, also as being like business conversations you need to have. At Ziering Medical, some of our business conversations that take place every single day are lead generation, and lead conversion, and how all of that is turning into revenue. So, you know, that might be that smaller practices set of KPIs, but whatever it is, you want to create metrics that you write down and you plan to use to manage your business and, you know, those numbers. And I’ll even share one of my little secret, I have the marketing KPIs on a very simple pink Post-it note, that I keep stuck at my eye line.
So when I open up my laptop, it’s the first thing I see every day. And I have to ask myself the question of, if I’m doing my job, I have to say, or start my day with something like this. What are you going to do today to push conversion or optimize conversion because if I’m spending marketing dollars to build the practice, they need to be spent efficiently and there’s always places you can go look, to make sure that that conversion process is flowing. But if you have an established metrics and a metrics that not only you care about, but matter for your business, it’s like you’re flying blind. You don’t know if you’re up or you’re down.
Tim: Right. Well, unfortunately of or, you know, depending on how you look at it, there are a lot of practices who don’t spend the time, energy and effort. But what’s interesting Joni, and I also want to introduce another guest on the podcast today, a colleague of mine, April Linden, who’s our Executive Vice President, Practice Consulting and Training. She’s got some questions, I know she’s dying to ask you. But before I bring April on, it’s – the interesting part, Joni is it’s not that these practices don’t spend money, in many cases, they spend much more money than they need to. Because the doctor at the end of the day only thinks about, “Okay, well, how many people did I see today?” So therefore, things must be good. And they ignore all those pieces along the way. And a lot of times, what happens is you end up as, you know, you’re doubling down on things that aren’t working. And there’s a lot of, a lot that goes into the impact on what you put in it and what pulled through. And April, I know you should have some questions about that, so I’m going to turn it over to you for a minute, okay?
April: Sure. Thanks, Tim. And thank you for including me on today’s podcast. Joni, I’d love to have you share with us a little bit about how from this front end, you use the data to determine, so how effective was I at driving those key performance indicators. So from an internal standpoint, once you drive those indicators, what are some of the things that the rest of the team – what are some of the KPIs that they’re looking at to make sure that you do have a high return on investments?
Joni: So let me try to tackle that’s a big whopping question. One of the things that we’re constantly looking at is, you know, what is that lead to book appointment, attend that consult, at conversion rate alongside then of all those attended consultation of appointments, how many are turning into surgery? So we set a KPI for what we expect the conversion rate to be from initial lead or initial inquiry to attended consultation appointment. We set another metric for what we expect to happen after someone sits down and has a consultation appointment with us. We have a broader KPI around, what should it look like from initial inquiry to completed surgery. So those are the three metrics that we’re following and looking at every day.
And behind that is sort of the science of setting a lead target, because we understand by reverse engineering, roughly how many leads it takes based on our historical conversion rates it takes to get X number of consult appointments. And based on historical data, what that conversion rate from appointment to surgery looks like. So we sort of reversed engineer that to realize that we have to get X number of leads every month, and that calculation is run every day. What are we on pace for, you know, this month and by the midpoint of the month, you know, there’s this deep dive into the numbers to kind of go we’re on track to hit our lead target. Well, if we’re on track to hit our lead target, how are we doing with booked and, you know, the scheduled appointments and more importantly, the attended appointments, because those are usually indicators of how we’re going to do against all those goals that we set.
And they’re roughly the same. The one thing we take into consideration is seasonality, we tend to get a little slow during the summer. I think a lot of aesthetic businesses tend to see that. So we might adjust in the summer because we come to this place, all of us that are in the practice we’ve been around for a long time, most of the original crew is still there. And we’ve come to accept the reality, you know, sometimes you have to learn to love what is and not [Crosstalk] [00:16:33] over–.
April: What was?
Joni: Yeah. So we’re pretty realistic about what we can accomplish and, you know, I would say to a few people out there that don’t set metrics, you know, maybe I don’t know why that is, but the numbers really become your friend. Because you don’t realize that you’ve got something not firing property properly in your marketing channels, if you don’t know what to anticipate in terms of lead volume. If you know by the 15th of the month, you’re expecting to be about halfway to your target your lead target. And if you’re not even remotely close to that, you know, that’s like the red flag on the field, you kind of go, I need to go looking to see what’s happening.
Joni: And, and then on the conversion front, you know, the internal part of that is to, I guess I would just come down to the basics of execution becomes everything. If you’ve generated a lead, you know what your threshold for your cost per lead show should be. If your call center team understands that metric, then they understand they’re being handed an opportunity to create a return and you want to make sure that they’re doing the right amount of lead nurture, with meaningfully engaging with that new lead.
Tim: Right. And how much [Crosstalk] [00:18:10]. How much do you – time, do you spend in communicating back to those folks who are on the front line? Is that under your purview or is there someone that you’re working with that does that? How does that function [Crosstalk] [00:18:24]?
Joni: We have a call center director and as you can imagine, there’s a lot of communication back and forth there, you know, you kind of live and die by those people that are on the front line. They are what your prospective patients first experience and that prospective patient takes a lot of cues about what their experience is going to be based on that first interaction. Those are some of the most critical people in the practice.
Tim: Right. And – that, because there are people answering the phone. Go ahead, April.
April: So I was going to say, Joni, in working with you, I know there’s a lot of attention placed on who we captured. But then there’s also a lot of attention on who we didn’t capture and maybe you can share with us some of your insights on those hang ups and how you evaluate the hang up in regards to your total marketing dollars and what some of the unique opportunities are that the call center staff does to maximize the hang ups and not just go, it’s a lost opportunity?
Joni: Yeah, I have to say, you know, Tim, you may not realize the time that April and I spend together but she has sat alongside me during very painful moments of listening to a phone call. You learn a lot. But you know, when you are looking at conversion and you – if you’ve got a problem, you’re going to want to look at every lead form and you’re going to want to listen to as many people calls as possible. And you the hang ups, you might think your tendency might be to think it’s a hang up, they’re not that interested in us, but not reality, you never know what broke up the potential conversation.
And with the metrics, and amount of data that we see in Crystal Clear, we can see that phone number, we can try to reach out to that person and, with the kind of conversation that says, you know, we saw that we got a missed call from you, and we’re really here to help if you’re interested. What can we do for you? So, I always say you just can’t give up on anybody because in the real world, you know, you look at, we’ve got competitors, we’re not going to get every patient out there that’s looking for hair transplant surgery. So we definitely want to make the most of anybody who’s potentially looking at us.
Tim: And what are the – the other question that I want to bring it the second part of, you know, the stream example is the hang up, but also, there’s people that you engage with who just got hung up at some point in the process. And, Joni, if I had a nickel for every practice, and you know, I go to 40 shows a year, every person practice manager, marketing manager, surgeon, that I said, “Hey, what are you doing to capture the forms and phone calls that come into the practice” Because you know, you’re not going to convert every one of them, and if you don’t have a way to capture them, how are you going to chase them a week from now, a month from now, a year from now. And you guys came, you know, you started using a concept that’s still amazingly true, is still relatively new to elective medicine, which is the notion of CRM, right?
So some type of way to, you know, you using one for a long time recently transferred names don’t matter. But what was it you that introduced the concept of CRM at Ziering? And at what stage did you do that? Was that like right away, was that in the middle or?
Joni: It was from the very beginning and we really had to develop our old CRM and invest in it every year, for lots of reasons. The complexity of marketing, the availability of more data, the functionality that would create sort of an ease of doing business internally. There’s all kinds of ways that you want to work with your CRM from reporting and drilling down and then drilling down some more. But we – that was from day one, and the initial CRM was quite immature, but a lot of time, sweat, blood, tears in the developing, to get it to where we needed it to be more, you know, helpful in us managing the practice.
Tim: And how are you dealing with the, you know, either an existing employee when you brought it on or a new employee that says, I don’t want to do that?
Joni: Well, that’s not optional. You know, here is a way – here is my thought about CRM and it sort of the good, the bad and the ugly of it, you know, do any of us like change. No, I don’t know too many people that run to change but it’s important and the reason why it’s not optional is that we truly live and die by our data. And if every employee doesn’t own their actions in the CRM, we end up with bad data because sometimes your data is only as good as that input. And when you run a report and you’ve got, you know, fields that have not been entered, you’ve got missing data and the story may not be complete, or if you’ve got errors in that input, you might make a decision that’s really not the best one, but you’re doing it based on what you can see.
So I guess if I had one hope, and hope is not a strategy, I am not suggesting that but if I had one hope, it would be that employees or your staff really takes seriously the availability of that CRM and they would get excited about it. Now I know I have a sister in April because people have said that about us, we get excited about [Indiscernible] [00:24:57] the numbers. So, I know she feels the same way that I do about it and, you know, I love watching the data come together to tell a story. But marketing is a team sport and you’ve got to have people that care about that as much as the marketing department, because we will fail based on looking at data, that’s not correct.
Tim: And it keeps evolving. I mean, that’s, you know, the story changes month to month, year, like you said, month to month, quarter to quarter, year to year. How has social media changed your marketing dollars, the way you look at that, you said you’re investing a fair amount now in social media. So has that been kind of in addition to or has that allowed you to bring down some of your PPC costs or your organic SEO costs?
Joni: I think, it is we for the first time we brought on a social media director at the end of last year or in fourth quarter of last year. And I will definitely invest more as we go into 2020. What I love it overall social still represents a relatively small part of our marketing spend and our business. But what I do love about it is that it’s so instantaneous or, you know, you can so quickly create and publish meaningful content to address something that’s happening in real time, it goes really quick. And the other thing that I really like about it and I think especially our younger population of patients really connect with it because it really keeps the practice real. It really gives patients an up close and personal look at the practice and at surgery. And it does it better than any other platform. There’s so much more you can do there and I think some of the other spaces.
Tim: I think you’ve – you’re on April, I know you had one more question for around patient satisfaction.
April: Sure. Actually, based on what you just talked about, I was going to ask you something totally different. So I was curious in knowing how much you look at the data, what you would share about the effectiveness of the virtual consultation approach versus what you’re seeing for the consultation approach, because I know that’s been a huge focus of your practice, and what you just found and looking at the data?
Joni: You know, that’s a real interesting part of our practice right now. And I think we’ve got room to sharpen that and get even better with it. But what the genesis of our wanting to develop a really good virtual consult experience for our prospective patients is kind of simple. We get what we call our nomenclature for it internally is out of market leads. And we get them from the US, so we code them as out of market domestic, and we get a steady stream of out of market international leads. We don’t spend any money to generate those leads, as you can imagine.
Tim: Right. It’s an organic company.
Joni: With – right, it just wouldn’t make sense for us to do that because most people are looking for a provider that’s relatively close. Most people don’t want to travel but that number just keeps growing for us. So then we have to say these people are genuinely interested, you know, how do we craft a convenient point of entry into our practice that makes them feel heard, where they can engage with a doctor, where they can get a meaningful recommendation and decide if they want to move forward with us or not. And hence we have the virtual consult, and we’ve – we’re still fine tuning it, I wouldn’t say we’ve got it mastered, but we care about it getting better and better. And what we’ve seen as a result of employing or listening to that, see, I call that listening.
Joni: What we’re gleaning and gaining from that is an uptick in consultations or attended consults from those outside markets. It also gives us a little bit of a view and a lens into where we might want to increase our physical footprint for the company.
Tim: Wow. I tell you what, for someone who says, and I don’t know, I’m not sure if I believe you that you’ve never done a podcast before. You certainly know what you’re doing. And to me listening to you, Joni, it all seems so linear in nature and so practical. And it’s like, as you’re speaking, I’m literally sitting here thinking, guys, if you want to go grow your practice, this is how you do it, right? The challenges that we have at Crystal Clear, as you know, is it’s trying to encourage people to follow to take a linear approach to these things, and to separate facts from feelings. And so many people, when it’s a small business, they try to run their business on feelings. I feel like things are going good, I feel like we had a good day, a good week, and they completely ignore the notion that, you know what, having data is probably better than not having data. The last question I had of it April hasn’t yet fully wind down. But do you ever do actual surveys to customers?
Joni: We don’t, but we should. Because I do think we still don’t do enough listening. And, you know, I’m just a big believer of that, whether you’re listening internally to your employees, because I do think sometimes your next best marketing idea can come from your receptionist, or it can come from your call center team who’s really fielding questions. But, you know, you did say something, and I want to share this story with you because it was one of the most humbling moments in my marketing life at Ziering Medical. And it’s the importance of testing everything because to your point, we can feel things or we can look at things and go that just looks amazing, I just can’t even wait, you know, it’s just oh, wow, I’m so impressed.
But I’ll never forget the first time, this is probably about eight years ago, and we were working on redesigning our website. And we decided there were two different ways we could go, so we created sort of that – sort of two different landing page designs for that homepage, okay. They were both very different. Well, I’ll be very honest with you. I had a favorite and I knew it would win, and I just knew that when we tested it, it would be the one. And I – it performed very poorly. And that’s – I would just say when you can split test – AB tests because how you feel and your personal likes and dislikes may not represent your patient base. And that was an incredibly humbling moment for me.
Tim: It is and I, first of all, thank you for sharing that. And I always say, we have a tendency as humans to assume that everyone thinks like us. And it’s the people’s mis –so for example, back in the insurance industry, people would say, “Oh, Tim, you know, my customers, they’re busy, they’re high end professionals. They’re not going to respond to email marketing.” And then I would say, “Well, you know, you’re busy, right?” “Yeah.” “You’re a high end professional, right?” “Yup.” “How did I meet you?” And the guy goes, “Email.” Exactly, so we have to stop projector – projecting onto the universe, this universal value system, and like you said, try it. And you might be surprised that the data that you get back from that, and I think that’s a great story. Before we wind down, April, were there any other questions that you had?
April: I just – one last question. We talked a lot about looking at the data of what’s already happened. Can you talk to me a little bit about how you use the data to forecast, you know, what’s going to be coming and what decisions you make based on your forecasting?
Joni: Sure. Funny, I can’t remember exactly what we spoke about with regard to that. But what I can say is that we’re – we are constantly looking, you know, 30-60 days out to get a handle on the schedule of consult appointments and surgery bookings that are building across future months because that’s another indicator for us that we’re lining up.
Joni: To accomplish our goals next month and the next month, because at the end of the quarter, we always write a recap of all the marketing activity, the results, you know, across the practice. And we’re, that to us is an indicator of how are – how those – are the leads still good quality, are they converting? It’s an indicator for us about what the sales cycle might look like, is it you know, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, you know, we’ll see it get a little protracted in the summertime. So when we’re looking 30-60 days out, you know, the growth that we want to see, or the build or the increase is a little more sluggish. So it makes us know we really have to stay on top of every single lead and every single opportunity.
And as we see that we understand by looking at that data, what might be impacting that or creating a downturn or upturn. That makes us understand or informs how we push the marketing budget and we might push it harder or pull it back if we’ve got what we need. Because why keep spending money if you got what you need to accomplish, what you set out to do. So, you know, it’s just every day it’s fluid, and every day you’re looking at all those little indicators and making sure that there is, there’s a little army working hard for the company.
April: And I truly – one last thing I was going to say and I truly believe that because you and I spend hours upon hours looking and evaluating in the beauty of data, is it gives you the opportunity to measure what you’re doing, to manage the process and on a continual basis to adjust internally and externally how effective we are as a team to executing our goals. So I do appreciate your feedback. Go ahead, I’m sorry.
Joni: And so – that’s so true April and April has been phenomenal because she will sit with me in the hard places and, you know, really look at stuff. I mean, the nice thing about numbers opposed to feelings they do not lie.
Joni: Numbers will not lie to you and numbers tell stories. So you do have to sort of step back from the numbers and the data that you see and humanize them and understand that those are stories that are screaming to tell us. Those are numbers, like screaming to tell a story.
Tim: It’s amazing.
Joni: And it can – it really is because and in if you don’t have those KPI set, you really don’t know what to do. To April’s point when you’ve got a problem you – A, you don’t know you have the problem and then B, you don’t have any process in place to right the shift.
Joni: So, and in your internal team is just as important as everything you’re doing externally.
Tim: It’s amazing to me, Joni, how much it’s – you’re such a unique individual, because you – there’s a couple things that are clear to me. One, is you have a great handle on what it takes to make all this work, that’s number one – number – probably three things. Number two, you do have a passion for it, and it comes through in your voice, and people are going to really enjoy hearing what you shared, they really are going to enjoy what you shared today. And you understand that, you could have all the greatest data in the world, the greatest marketing is in the world. But if your people aren’t, if the folks on the front line aren’t being communicated with, they aren’t being managed, they aren’t being provided a data – the feedback, then the whole thing is going to fall apart anyways.
And so I love the fact, you know, we always talk about people process and tools and your grasp on all of them is unbelievable. And I really want to say thank you, for, I know you’re super busy, you’ve got a ton to do. I’m really grateful for you spending time on the podcast today. I know our listeners are going to love it. April, if there’s anyone interested in learning more about the consulting part of what you do, how would somebody reach out to you?
April: So they can either give me a call at 619-851-0195 or they can reach you – reach me by email at alinden, L-I-N-D-E-N @crystalcleardm.com, and we have programs available for all different types of practices. That we really can customize something to help you achieve your goals in the most seamless capacity.
Tim: I hope they do. And what is the Ziering website Joni, if people want to take a look at what you guys are doing and track you?
Joni: It’s zieringmedical.com, and I’m going to spell that because so many people misspell Dr. Ziering’s name. So much so that we bid on misspellings of his name [Indiscernible] [00:40:16] so he is findable, but it’s Z-I-E-R-I-N-G M-E-D-I-C-A-L, so zieringmedical.com.
Tim: That’s awesome. Well, guys, thank you once again for listening to True to Form podcast brought to you by Crystal Clear. Once again, I want to thank our guest today who was amazing and provided incredible insights that I know you all find valuable. Thank you, Joni, for joining us. Thank you to April Linden from Crystal Clear for taking the time to sit with us today. And we look forward to seeing you again too guys. Thank you.
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